Jump in, the water is lovely...

Rahaen » December 11th, 2011, 12:03 am

Looking for a self, here's what I find. I'm closing my eyes. There's a field of awareness in which things appear. Thoughts, emotions, body sensations, sounds. Some of those things I can pinpoint, others, like thoughts, don't seem to have an exact location.

There's the thought and the feeling that the thoughts, emotions and body sensations are mine and the sounds aren't. But there's no practical difference between them from my point of view, they are all things that appear in the same field, the difference doesn't seem to be more than a label. I couldn't find a separation between what is mine and what isn't. It can't be distance, because for example a sound right next to my ear feels closer than the sensations in my foot, but it's still labeled as "not mine". 

I can't find a reason for this other than the assumption (thought) that while I share this field of awareness with people, certain things can only be perceived from this (my?) point of view - like the aforementioned sensations in my foot.

I think of things, I play around with my imagination. I want to think of a triangle and it appears in that field. I want to think of an apple and that appears too. I'm not creating those things, those thoughts, something else is, probably the mind, I can see this clearly. But it does feel as if I give the order and the mind takes care of the details.

Why did I decide it was going to be a triangle and an apple? I couldn't say. Actually I didn't. I decided to think of things and the triangle and apple just came to me and then they were drawn in detail by the mind. Did I actually even decide to think of things? I don't know. It feels that way.

I cannot see this "I". It feels like a point, a position in this field of awareness, from which only the field can be perceived, but the point is incapable of seeing itself. Does it have a size? No, it doesn't. I couldn't describe it in any way, it doesn't seem to have a shape. The field of awareness doesn't seem incomplete so I have no idea, where there would be space for an I to exist. What makes it feel like an I though is the feeling (again - feeling) that it has some control over what appears in the field. And that it has a unique point of view on this field, as I mentioned before.

What scares me (or at least it creates quite a bit of resistance) is that I may find that there's nothing there to make a choice. If there's nothing to make a choice, doesn't this mean that life is predetermined, that fate is absolute, that there's no free will whether exercised by an I or something else? What would be the value of courage without free will? What would be the point in life, if it's pre-written? That wouldn't make any sense to me. I'm probably missing something here (haha).

Thank you for walking with me.

 Nemo » December 12th, 2011, 8:27 am

Carl Sagan said, "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."

This, the creation of the universe, was the one and only cause. Everything else from there is effect. It is the finely tuned conditions that have led up to this moment, started this dialogue, caused "you" to think of a triangle, or more importantly to look for a self.

This is what is there to make a choice, the very universe itself. This perfect set of circumstances. This only set of circumstances. 

In a very real way, your point of reference is the only point of reference.
Can you find a centre anywhere in this locale of existence?
Are internal and external mutually exclusive?

 Rahaen » December 12th, 2011, 11:08 am

"Carl Sagan said, "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."
This, the creation of the universe, was the one and only cause. Everything else from there is effect. It is the finely tuned conditions that have led up to this moment, started this dialogue, caused "you" to think of a triangle, or more importantly to look for a self.
This is what is there to make a choice, the very universe itself. This perfect set of circumstances. This only set of circumstances."

But there must be a wild card, no? I mean, really, if it's all predetermined...I just wanted to say "if it's all predetermined, there's really no point in it, is there?", but thinking about it, that would be assuming the universe had a goal like a grand experiment, figuring itself out or something. Actually there _can_ be meaning without a goal. I was dancing salsa with this woman yesterday and we totally clicked and I wasn't looking for a goal in that or saying "what's the point", that would be absurd. It was just fucking beautiful, that was all the meaning there was, just that.

But when the thought of challenges comes up in my mind, there's resistance to this idea, like - if the outcome of a challenge was predetermined, it isn't really a challenge, is it? The only meaning I can find in a challenge is embracing it and growing from it. But is it really growth, when the outcome is predetermined? There's this inner drive here to do things, to eat well, to work out, to learn things, to grow, basically, and it feels like it is all the patterns of self that interfere with it. But if everything is predetermined, then those patterns are also just effect, the seeing or not seeing of no-self is also just an effect. So what is there to do other than just let things play out? There's a part of me, a thought that says "screw this, just drop your search, it'll be fine, that's letting things play out". I don't want to do that and luckily it's a weak part, but are you saying that there isn't really a choice in the matter, that no-self will be seen or not seen and I or the universe or consciousness or whatever can't do anything about it? When writing this down and rereading it it doesn't sound that absurd, actually, but it's like my mind jumps in the way and goes "this doesn't make sense to me yet, I can't let you go further until it does" and I'm not sure if that's a bad thing.

"In a very real way, your point of reference is the only point of reference.Can you find a centre anywhere in this locale of existence?"

I can only find one point of reference, this point of view and I would call it center. I am only assuming that there are other points of reference, when looking at other people, I don't actually know what the universe looks from there, I don't think I actually can know other than paint a picture of it in my head.

"Are internal and external mutually exclusive?"

I'm not sure I understand the question right, are you asking if both can exist simultaneously? If so - yes, they can, there's stuff here that's labeled mine (thoughts, emotions) and stuff that's not (sights, sounds), but both exist in the same space without any visible division, just a different label. There's still the thought and a sense of "my space", though.

 Nemo » December 14th, 2011, 9:25 am

Everything is not predetermined - the eternal now, it's happening as we speak. Past and future don't exist, except for thoughts in this moment. There is no ultimate goal the universe is striving towards, and the only thing that can hold any meaning, is the process. There is no end result, only an ongoing, exquisite process. This is where truth lies.

"It was just fucking beautiful, that was all the meaning there was, just that."

Exactly.

"So what is there to do other than just let things play out? There's a part of me, a thought that says "screw this, just drop your search, it'll be fine, that's letting things play out"."

Actually, this is an important realisation to have. This is exactly what will need to happen, at some point.

"are you saying that there isn't really a choice in the matter, that no-self will be seen or not seen and I or the universe or consciousness or whatever can't do anything about it?"

No, I am actually saying the opposite. There IS a choice in the matter, only the choice is made by environment and conditions - the universe - and not some fictional character. What would you rather be in control of the situation, to be making decisions? The universe, or an illusory self?

Why is seeing or not seeing no-self important?
Reality sees disharmony in itself. This disharmony is the result of things being distorted and experienced through a false perspective. This is why you are seeking, no? This is where the dance of life has played itself out to, to this point of examining existence, and you can either struggle against the tide, or "let things play out." Things will happen as they should anyway, only the path can be long and full of struggle and suffering, or be of ease and beauty and enjoyment - the path of least resistance. 

"I can only find one point of reference, this point of view and I would call it center. I am only assuming that there are other points of reference, when looking at other people, I don't actually know what the universe looks from there, I don't think I actually can know other than paint a picture of it in my head."

Wonderful, well said... anything that does not exist in immediate experience can only ever be conjecture.
As for this center, you will find upon close examination that it is really much like a mirage, it's seeming location is always fleeting, it's position always shifts around in view. But we can always come back to this if needed. Our focus right now is on examining existence of a self.

Simplify things right down, and examine your direct experience. See if no-self is true, see if it applies to actual reality, to everyday experience. Try not to get caught up in intellectualising. Just keep it simple.

Rahaen » December 17th, 2011, 12:07 pm

Fuck. It's like...a cosmic prank, isn't it? 15 minutes ago I was laughing so hard, I had tears in my eyes. I took my wallet. It's a card holding thing, so lots of pages. Turned it around in my hands, touched it. Looked at the experience. There's the black artificial leather. I'm seeing it. The sensation of fingers touching the leather. Check. Started flipping the pages. No idea how I'm flipping them, the fingers seem to know what they're doing. Started flipping them backwards. Why? No idea. Just happened, didn't feel like I decided it. Memories coming up when looking at some cards, thoughts, some emotions. All of that's not me. But at least I'm watching the whole thing, right? Who's watching? "I'm watching". And the second that thought appeared I went "Who said that?" That's another thought. Who are these people talking? "It's just me." "WHO SAID THAT?!" Can't wipe the grin off my face as I'm writing this. Is this it? It's all just thoughts coming up. I'm not really there. I can't even say I'm not there, cause it's just another thought coming up like "I'm watching this." It's like...it's fucking obvious, but at the same time it doesn't make any sense, you can't get this logically. Thinking about how often I've read self help crap like "Learn to be present in the moment", it's like the biggest lie ever. "Lose yourself in the moment" How can you fucking lose yourself when you were never there in the first place and all there is IS the moment? Jesus. I can say I'm watching life happen, but that is a thought that's as much part of life as the actual watching, senses, brain and everything. So there IS just life, including the thought and the watching, how could it be separate? No I there. Either I'm damn good at deluding myself (that'd be fun - something that doesn't exist thinking it's deluding itself) or I'm done.

There's no fear now, when the thought of free will comes up. Truth is, I don't really know if there is free will that goes beyond cause and effect. It makes sense that there is, but I don't really know for sure. What I do know though is that if there is, I is not exercising it.

Funny thing is, there are some thoughts coming up now like "I have it now. I'm through. They'll blue my name and everyone will know I'm enlightened. I'm special." Like there's someone here who wants to be special. But...he's not really here. And I would've been ashamed of those thoughts some time ago, thinking "What the fuck are you doing, you are reaching for truth and enlightenment, this is about destroying your ego, not feeding it." Right now - well, the ego's there. No need to fight it. It just...is.

 Rahaen » December 17th, 2011, 1:15 pm

P.S. And when I say ego, I don't mean that in the freudian sense of the word (as far as my limited knowledge of Freud goes), I am referring to the sense of being separate, special, better (and obviously existing).

Nemo » December 17th, 2011, 4:16 pm

Nice work Rahaen, big grins here too my friend.

"But at least I'm watching the whole thing, right? Who's watching? "I'm watching". And the second that thought appeared I went "Who said that?" That's another thought. Who are these people talking? "It's just me." "WHO SAID THAT?!" Can't wipe the grin off my face as I'm writing this."

Awesome.
We tend to have this unexamined pre-conception that the act of watching requires a watcher.... does it?

"Is this it? It's all just thoughts coming up. I'm not really there."

Fucking kick-ass. Ridiculously simple isn't it? Kinda anti-climactic even? :)

"I can say I'm watching life happen, but that is a thought that's as much part of life as the actual watching, senses, brain and everything. So there IS just life, including the thought and the watching, how could it be separate? No I there. Either I'm damn good at deluding myself (that'd be fun - something that doesn't exist thinking it's deluding itself) or I'm done."

Seems to me like you're done here, but I'd like to ask just a couple more questions because it never hurts to be thorough.

"Funny thing is, there are some thoughts coming up now like "I have it now. I'm through. They'll blue my name and everyone will know I'm enlightened. I'm special." Like there's someone here who wants to be special. But...he's not really here. And I would've been ashamed of those thoughts some time ago, thinking "What the fuck are you doing, you are reaching for truth and enlightenment, this is about destroying your ego, not feeding it." Right now - well, the ego's there. No need to fight it. It just...is."

Very cool. Yep, thoughts still come and go man, including ones that look ridiculous like these, but you can let them be - no need to fight them, as you said - because you know they are nothing more than thoughts. And now they lose their power because it is seen that the "I" they were attached to isn't really there. Thoughts about I still come and go, but they are merely thoughts. Nothing more.

Okay, so. A couple questions.

When you say "I" or "me", what are you referring to?

How would you explain no-self to a child?

Rahaen » December 17th, 2011, 10:42 pm

"We tend to have this unexamined pre-conception that the act of watching requires a watcher.... does it?"

I do have to admit this question raised the doubt a bit that's been there on and off since yesterday night. Did something really change? Did perception change? Definitely did, but is this it?
When I read your question I was sort of expecting the answer to just jump out of me like I've been pumped full of insight all of a sudden. Felt like I had to do some examination again though. Watching an experience IS that experience, anything else that can be said about it is just thought, conjecture - like the fact that there's an I, an experience and an act of watching. It can be useful too, like if I'm standing on the coast and I see a tsunami coming my way there'll be the thought of "There's a tsunami, if you don't get out of here you'll die." But all of that is the experience, the seeing of the tsunami, the thoughts that appear, the getting to higher ground reaction, etc. Any other properties of the tsunami that are not seen or experienced in this exact moment are useful conjecture (and part of the experience - as thought) - like the fact that it's deadly. The experiencer, the watcher is conjecture as well. Looking at something and going "I'm watching this." is an experience consisting of watching, the thought "I'm watching this." and the sound and feel of saying those words. And that's it.

In a way the sense that I am here hasn't gone away, I kind of just know that I'm not.

"Fucking kick-ass. Ridiculously simple isn't it? Kinda anti-climactic even? :)"

Well, my expectations weren't that high in the first place (I thought), but there's still a part of me that was like "Cool. Now where the hell are my superpowers?" :)
I had this need to be careful when writing "I", like "I have to see this, if I say that I do something it means I'm not seeing it.", but now it's just...language. Just doesn't mean what it used to, in a way, but that's no reason to bend over backwards to express myself ( :) ) differently, it's still useful. 

"Seems to me like you're done here, but I'd like to ask just a couple more questions because it never hurts to be thorough."

Yup, don't be too quick to buy this, there's still some doubt here that makes me look again from time to time, but every time I do I'm still not here. And as much as I'd love to I couldn't say that there's no tension here, it's just kind of...part of the experience, like the sense of I.

I was listening to some people do smalltalk in the corridor outside as I was waking up this morning and the listening felt different, more transparent. Like I could see the emptyness of most of it much more clearly, but also the few honest, real parts. Ha. There's my superpowers.

"When you say "I" or "me", what are you referring to?"

When I say I, I'm referring to this point of view/this body/mind, because people would think I'm nuts if I don't (and I'd probably go nuts trying to avoid saying it). That wouldn't be very useful. I really can't think of much more to add to that.
Just played around a bit with saying "This is my life." and "I'll be there." This is silly, but I'm laughing right now thinking of saying "I'll be there." to someone, it's like 10 jokes in four words :)) It's just thought really. 

"How would you explain no-self to a child?"

I would give them some toy and go "This is mine, but you can play with it if you want. You like it? Now it's yours. Do you still like it? It's still the same toy, isn't it?" 

 Nemo » December 18th, 2011, 11:41 pm

Doing some great work here Rahaen :)

"Did something really change? Did perception change? Definitely did, but is this it?"

Were you expecting something else? You mentioned your expectations weren't high in the first place, which is definitely very helpful in this. Yes, the only thing that really changes immediately, in direct relation to this insight, is perception. We are not going about actually changing anything else, we're simply having a look at what's real. 

"In a way the sense that I am here hasn't gone away, I kind of just know that I'm not."

Yeah. Since nothing changes, there is no reason for whatever exists before the realisation to disappear afterwards. Sense of self included.

"I had this need to be careful when writing "I", like "I have to see this, if I say that I do something it means I'm not seeing it.", but now it's just...language. Just doesn't mean what it used to, in a way, but that's no reason to bend over backwards to express myself ( :) ) differently, it's still useful."

Great! It can be a fun experiment to try and write without using personal pronouns, (sometimes I even try or suggest swapping all the I's, me's or names in a passage with a word like "reality" or "life") but really, there is no need to trip yourself up on linguistics. Fact is, we're speaking about nonduality with a dualistic language, and we have no other choice in the matter.

You mentioned there's still some doubt there. Tell me more about it, and we can examine it until it disappears.

"I would give them some toy and go "This is mine, but you can play with it if you want. You like it? Now it's yours. Do you still like it? It's still the same toy, isn't it?""

Nice start, but very brief. Can you elaborate? Imagine I'm either a child, or just someone who has never heard about any of this stuff before. Can you give me a simple, yet detailed explanation?

Rahaen » December 19th, 2011, 5:09 am

"You mentioned there's still some doubt there. Tell me more about it, and we can examine it until it disappears."

I was getting a bit stuck on the "watching without a watcher" thing, I was still feeling there can't really be watching without a watcher. In a way, I felt that while I wasn't doing the thinking or acting or feeling, I was the one who perceived it and I was able to direct consciousness/attention to different thoughts and feelings and thus have an effect on life. I tried to convince myself that there doesn't have to be a watcher and it made logical sense to a point, but I don't think I had really gotten it.

This morning I realized that the process of watching something means that this something is perceived in the mind triggering visual images, thoughts, emotions, and all that is highlighted by consciousness.

Yesterday I was thinking - how can something be watched without somewhere to register, I mean perception means that something registers somewhere else?
Well it does - it registers in the mind and is highlighted by consciousness. So it could be said in a way that consciousness and the mind are the watcher, but that would imply that they are separate from the thing being watched, which is impossible as it has a direct and tangible effect on them. And the physical processes necessary for watching to occur have a direct and tangible effect on the thing being watched. But I digress.

The whole concept of watching as typically understood is a very abstract one and I think has no basis in reality at all - an experience can't be watched as the watching is part of the experience or rather it IS the experience. It can't be had as that's the same thing. It can't be experienced. It can just be.

And the most important part - consciousness doesn't need me. None of it does. It seems that consciousness is, in a way, the aspect of life, of experience, that goes the deepest. I read something (I think on your blog) along the lines of "The witness is the last stand of the ego." I think it's true and this is why. Once you see that consciousness is just consciousness and not at all the thing that the story of "You" points to, you realize you've looked everywhere and you didn't find this person. The story of you was pointing to an assumption.

And it's all still here. The desires, the fears, the thoughts, even the person or self. The only thing that seems to be missing is the assumption that it's more than a mental construct.

And the single experience that exists now, constantly flowing and changing, life, is the interplay of everything there is - body, consciousness, mind, thoughts, memories, mental constructs like self, emotions, etc. and it makes sense in a way to say "I am all of that" but at the same time there's no single part of this that the idea of I points to, no single part of this that's at the center of the I-story, so it is also true to say "I am none of that." and since "that" is all there is - "I am not."

"Nice start, but very brief. Can you elaborate? Imagine I'm either a child, or just someone who has never heard about any of this stuff before. Can you give me a simple, yet detailed explanation?"

When you said "child" I felt restricted in the words I could use and figured maybe it doesn't take much for someone who is not yet as burdened by the concepts we've been masturbating with in our heads for years. It's a good question, though, how would you explain this to a child?

Anyway, here's how I would explain this to someone who's never heard of it before. When you look at your direct experience at this moment, all the stuff that comes in through your senses and add to that all the internal, mental stuff like thoughts and emotions - that covers all that you can perceive.

That's obviously not you, that's what you perceive. And a lot of that internal stuff is very strongly connected to the person you think you are. There's values, character traits, expressions you use, memories, desires, dreams, fears, etc. And when you say "This is who I am" what you mean is "This is what defines me", because you do realize that you're not any of those memories or dreams or all of that and that what they basically do is they paint the image of you, of your person.

But have you ever checked if the person in that image actually exists? The obvious answer is "Of course it exists, that's me." That's an assumption. It seems pretty fucking obvious, of course, but that doesn't make it any less of an assumption. There was a time when it was pretty fucking obvious that the earth was at the center of the universe, until someone dared question that and turned out to be right. The guy was placed under house arrest for the rest of his life. You would take no such risk in questioning your assumption. If it's true it will stand the test of anything you might throw at it. But if it's wrong that would have pretty far-reaching consequences. The only thing you have to lose if it's wrong is a belief, an assumption.

To even consider this seriously without brushing it aside as new-age-spiritual-crap (like which, I admit, it can easily sound), you need an open mind, courage and a strong desire for truth, which, I would assume, you think of yourself as having. 

What lies behind the answer is mental freedom, plain and simple. You can even look at this economically - there's nothing of value to lose (unless you honestly value the unquestioned assumptions you hold) and there may be a lot to gain.
Do you care?

 Nemo » December 19th, 2011, 9:37 pm

Great work Rahaen, really well done my friend. Your appear to be crystal clear with Anatta/no-self and treading water beautifully. Assuming you have no other doubts with this, I'll ask some of the other reds here to read over and confirm as well.

You may, however, still have debris to clean up, which we have a different section for in this forum: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/viewforum.php?f=6
And also a group for on facebook for doing this work - really great discussions and support happening:https://www.facebook.com/groups/200033776715393/

And, of course, you can always contact me with any questions, anytime :)

Rahaen » December 20th, 2011, 3:05 am

Thank you so much Nemo. You gave me exactly the push I needed to fall off the edge, so to speak. You ought to get a special "liberated-in-under-10-posts" badge or something :)) Seriously, I totally feel like hugging you right now. In a manly, non-homoerotic way, of course. Assuming you're actually a guy and I didn't just make a fool of myself haha :)) Either way - consider yourself hugged. :)

As for the doubts - I'd say they are of a different kind now. When I said I had doubts before, it was like "There's doubts and looking at this honestly, something's definitely not clicking here." And now they are more like faint echoes, like remains from something, along the lines of "Fuck, did this really just happen?" and the answer is just obvious.

Funny thing is, there's some sense of pride there, like the person that was fighting so hard not to be seen through as an illusion now realized "Ok, didn't work out. Fuck it, let's just jump on the next bandwagon." It's like my personal comedy show really :) Might even miss him if he happens to go away one of these days.

Thanks for the links, I'll join the group once I've been confirmed. There's a ton of questions here and things going through my head that I want to share. And I want to learn more about how to help others see this and how to bring it up and have people consider it instead of giving me concerned looks and trying to save me from the dangerous cult I've supposedly joined :)

Nemo » December 21st, 2011, 8:00 am

Wonderful Rahaen, the gratitude is mutual. Certainly I'll take that hug :) I am actually female but shhh, don't tell anyone, 'Nemo' is latin for no-one and I like the mystery and anonymity, hehe.

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Relinquishing Control

Hi Nemo

I'm Markus, a random 22 yo guy from sweden trying to figure out what the hell this is all about.
I started playing with "spiritual stuff" about 3 years ago, and have been meditating for about 2 years. I even did a vipassana meditation retreat.
About 6 months ago I was introduced to Jed McKenna and I read all of his books. This sent me into a very dark and depressive mood.
The books definately did some damage, but apparently there is nobody being damaged by it. Then why does it hurt?
I definately feel that structures have been destroyed and several left unstable, all falling one by one eventually.

I went through a duel with StephVen which left me "liberated" after 2 months. It really felt as if I had it there, but then that dissapeared too.
And over the past few months I have had probably about 10 what I would call "false dawns".
I feel I have this whole no-self/non-duality deal perfectly understood intellectually. And that is keeping me back.

So what is there to get? I want the "thing" that will stick, the real thing that will be recognized once and never forgotten or unseen.
I am expecting some thing to change, but I don't even know what that would be. Is liberation about pattern recognition, where you just have to see one time how it really is and after that you just KNOW without thinking about it?

It doesn't get easier when I read that I am suppousedly already enlightened, like buddha nature. If that is the case, why am I not free?
I say I'm not free because I'm still searching. For what?  There is nothing to see.

Then what is the search about? What the hell am I really looking for? What is looking for what? This process is going on constantly.

If it is just realizing that nobody is looking for anything, then what is the whole point of enlightenment? Especially since the whole idea of self keeps living. Can a human function without it?
Function without what? If it was never there, then what is the thing that it represents? What is liberation FROM really?

And WHY does it appear if it doesn't exist?

I don't expect answers to all of those questions. Just letting my mind write freely so you can get a better understanding of my situation.
I see the contradictions everywhere looking at it now. What is this contradiction that comes up, like a paradox? A sentence can start out perfectly clear, then the other half of it will contradict the first. The play of opposites. Like everything must have it's counter to exist.

The biggest mindfuck about all this is how I realize that I have no control. I saw a documentary about free will where they managed to scientifically prove that the brain already decides if you will turn left or right 6 seconds before you are even concious of making that decision.
If everything happens on autopilot, then am I nothing other than a expression of a endless stream of concsiousness?

the toltec shamans talk about a force that they call intent, and apparently it's different from control.
They don't decide on stuff, but just follow their intent. I'm unsure on how to navigate in the world knowing what I know, or think that I know.

TL;DR:
I'm just fucking tired of searching. I wan't to experience just life, without questions and answers. I feel stuck somewhere. I would prefer skype/google chat because I easily go off track just writing long mails
I'll be very grateful if you have some time available for me.

Peace

Hey there Markus,

I'd be happy to chat with you. Did you get my email from my blog? I'm in Australia so there's about 16 hours time difference, so I'll respond to some stuff you said now to get you started.

You understand no-self and nonduality intellectually. Well, no-self implies there is no separate autonomous entity that controls or experiences, yes? What non-duality implies is that self and experience are not two separate things. That nothing, in fact, is a separate thing or entity from all other factors, conditions and elements presently occuring. So yes, hurt exists, it happens, it's part of experience. It's part of being human. It's too easy to torture oneself with neo-advaita type nondual speak and ideology. It's unnecessary and confusing.

Reality - real-life, and pandering or complying to the illusion of self, do not go together. When compared, they clash. Belief in self creates a gap between self and experience, hence the urge to close this gap. Self creates dishonesty. There is disharmony, a feeling that something is not right here, things seem very ingenuous. For harmony to be restored, reality needs to be liberated from self-illusion, at least as a first step.

You asked "Then what is the search about? What the hell am I really looking for? What is looking for what?"

Can you try to answer these questions for me yourself?

Realising that you have no control is wonderful. Suffering is created from believing you have control, or that you should have control. You can see that you have no control, that there is no controller, but you still haven't let go of the steering wheel. Imagine this: there is no one there to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders anymore. No one needing to receive praise and congratulations, no one there to be criticised and reprimanded for fucking up. No one to have to stroke, soothe, satisfy, scorn, satiate, appease, or avenge. Just life living, unmolested. Doesn't that sound like liberation?

If you're concerned about getting off track with writing long emails, just try to remind yourself to keep your response succinct and focused and to the point. Remember, the goal isn't to try and impress anyone. However, if you end up in a long rant, that's okay too, and will probably be more beneficial for you than me, as when your thoughts are out of your head and turned into writing, it can be easier to step back and take a look at them so you can assess things for yourself. I can only nudge you in the right direction, you're going to have to do the work though.

One last question you asked that you need to investigate: "am I nothing other than a expression of a endless stream of consciousness?"

Look forward to hearing back from you!

Hey

Thanks for doing this! Yes I got your email from your blog.

So No-Self implies there is nobody pulling the strings behind all of this. And Non-Duality says that the guy pulling the strings can't be seperated from experience. I think I can get my head around this.
Non-duality never sais that the guy exists in and of itself, simply that 'it' is one with experience. What is this 'it' then? It seems impossible to label it, since it doesn't exist independently (no-self) and it can't be seperated and looked at objectively (non-duality)

Yet it appears to exist. Why? I mean WHY WHy Why? Is there any evolutionary benefit of having this? How can something suddenly start appearing without existing? What is the concept of self even based on, if it doesn't exist at all. What are we talking about?

I remember reading that reality can't be liberated from the self. Simply that the concept of self is transformed from DELUSION to ILLUSION. Delusion being that one accepts the illusion as a truth, and illusion being something that appears but points to something else (or in this case, points to nothing? Perhaps some thoughts at best). Using this analogy i still feel that I'm inside delusion. Thoughts and actions are still saturated with delusion. Desire for praise and approval is still around.
Yes, I am expecting some things to change. It would be awesome if thoughts and actions could be PURE (no energy invested in illusion, approval seeking, attempts to impress etc). I want that change in pattern recognition which will allow me to see the concept of self as illusion rather than being caught up in its delusion. Just then, only then, things would be ok.

This is retarded. I'm calling it illusion, then I shouldn't be able to be deluded by it.

"Then what is the search about? What the hell am I really looking for? What is looking for what?"

I don't know what the search is about. I don't know what I'm looking for. Feels like im loosing my sanity. Do I make any sense at all?
The general theme seems to be about reaching a certain state/outcome somewhere in the future.
This is me trying to find myself in the future instead of looking here, because If I look here then I will die, and the search will be over. 

I am fucking addicted to this search yet I crave for it to end. " I " am the search. 

The search needs me, and me needs the search to live on. The identity and the search are one

I need a break, my head is spinning. I'll come back in a few hours.

Hey Markus.

To feel like you are going insane is commonly reported in the later stages. Happened to me as well. I seriously thought I was going to wind up in a nut house. It's okay though, just go with it, it can be a sign of clarity and determination believe it or not, and soon this insanity will seem like the sanest thing ever.

 You said:

"Non-duality never says that the guy exists in and of itself, simply that 'it' is one with experience. What is this 'it' then? It seems impossible to label it, since it doesn't exist independently (no-self) and it can't be separated and looked at objectively (non-duality)".

Exactly. So can you see it's useless asking what "it" is and why it's impossible and pointless to label "it"? Because it doesn't exist. As soon as you think of it as an it, you're creating the illusion of separation. Language makes things really difficult here because we're talking about nonduality with a dualistic language, without degenerating into nonsensical neo-advaita gobbledygook. Even saying something like "self is one with experience" can be confusing because it's dualistic. It implies a self exists for experience to be one with. But there is only experience. The trick is using the communication tools we have to work with, without making things over-complex and confusing, which can be very difficult! An example:

"I remember reading that reality can't be liberated from the self. Simply that the concept of self is transformed from DELUSION to ILLUSION."

Seems to me like two ways of saying the same thing. But no need to get caught up analysing language, unless it's really necessary and something needs clarifying. All this stuff is only pointers, and a lot of time gets spent looking at pointers and not what they are actually pointing to. 

"Yet it appears to exist. Why? I mean WHY WHy Why? Is there any evolutionary benefit of having this? How can something suddenly start appearing without existing? What is the concept of self even based on, if it doesn't exist at all. What are we talking about?"

Honestly, I really don't know. If I had to guess I'd say it has something with Freud's theory about the stages of Id, ego and super-ego, and is created as a biological survival tool when we are young that doesn't get dropped at the appropriate age, maybe due to social reinforcement, and was probably more necessary in earlier stages of man's evolution and survival than it is now. 

"I am fucking addicted to this search yet I crave for it to end. " I " am the search. 

The search needs me, and me needs the search to live on. The identity and the search are one."

Do you really need to be the search? For what purpose? When the search stops, what are you? There is absolutely nothing tangible that can be called "I". You could go on forever changing the definition of "I" to whatever is rising in immediate experience. For example, "I am the seeing", "I am the hearing", "I am the thinking". If a table is part of direct experience are you table? If you are thinking of a unicorn, are you thoughts of a unicorn? "I" is just a label. You could also just as easily use a different label and say "unicorn is the search", "unicorn is the seeing", etc. It makes just as much sense and has just as much purpose.
There is no need to identify with anything. Let it go. Just be open to what is.

You have definitely intellectualised all this stuff to the max, and are tripping yourself over the paradoxes created from something incredibly simple. Frustrating as hell, I know. But, instead of just thinking about this stuff, how have you looked to see if it applies to real life?
Do that. Apply it to real life and not just your thoughts, and tell me in a clear and simple language what you come up with.

Hey

I'm doing my best to get this out of my head and more into the real world. Taking the no-self concept into action and seeing it's implications on reality. This stuff is easy to think about, but it's a totally different thing actually acting upon it.
How can I transform this from just a concept to actual reality? I don't get how people say that you just have to look one time, and really see it, and then it just lives you. I have, or like to think so, looked and seen the true nature of experience more than once. Maybe I'm not liking what I'm getting, so I'm fooling myself with that I haven't "got it right yet" and need to look more. And thus it begins, looking away from the present moment to some imagined problem that once fixed (in the future ofcourse, not now) will finally make things right.

Taking it out to reality made me think more about how this applies to others as well, which was mildly said somewhat of a mindfuck. This actually goes for everybody, holy shit. So why do I get bothered by the opinions of "others", try to fit in the model of "others", when there ARE NO OTHERS!

How can I make it 'stick' ?

What Am I trying to stick to what?

Why bother trying, when there is nothing there?

Word-trip? Maybe. Whatever!

Waiting for your reply. Perhaps that will solve the problem about nothing

Hi Markus,

I'm flat out at the moment with work and stuff, but things are settling down again. Forgive any delay in my responses.

Firstly, you need to drop all your concepts and expectations. Constantly, always, move forward into the new moment empty-handed. "Enlightenment" is putting down your burden. Haha.

Forget what you've previously heard or what you've previously seen. Let it all go and just open your eyes to this, now. All that other stuff is only going to cloud your vision.

Why are you doing this? Why bother indeed?

Hey Nemo

Don't worry, the whole process of writing this down is a really useful tool for me. In the end I know that you can't enlighten me anyway so I don't really expect things. I appreciate any time you put into this, even if it's 5 minutes.

I don't know who/what I am, but still I assume that "I" exist. This assumption seems to lie at the very core of things. I want to know many things about it, like why it appears and how would experience be without it?

I feel that I have no choice with this. Fear that if I don't get it right now I'll end up regretting it when I'm older. If I do this I will be able to.. I don't know. I have no idea honestly what would even change, how can I possibly know..
Why should anything change? I don't go from self to no-self. I just need to know which one of these is true. Self - concept. No-self - concept. Neither is really true, but they both point to something, that's where I must look.

Self concept is pointing to that there is some thing, somewhere inside my body, that is a person. It controls the body, presses all the buttons and triggers etc. But it's ultimate - there is nobody controlling the controller. Complete free will. But, things never turn out the way you want them to, so why do I assume that there is a controller if I can't find any evidence of his work? Say I decided to write this email. Did I? Looking back it just sort of happened, thoughts connecting to other thoughts and next thing I'm here writing. I can just now decide to go and take a piss, but taking a piss relies on having a full bladder, so was the decision really "mine" or did I just act accordingly to what is?

No-self concept is pointing to that there are no things, this body is not "mine" and there is no such thing as a person. Things happen naturally, there is no control behind human actions. Breathing, eating, sleeping, everything happens automatically.

The main drive for this is the fact that if this can be "solved", "seen", whatever, then it has to be NOW. And from there it's easy math. A truth that applies to this current moment will apply to the past and the future as well.
Of course, I try many times to solve this by looking in the past or the future.

Damn these emails are taking up alot of my time considering how much I think and re-write. I'm also kind of drenched in work and stuff atm.

Take care!

Look at all the sensations, thoughts, vision, and feelings that are occurring in experience right now. Put aside the intellect as much as you can and really get a feel for them. Expand into them and sense their dimensions. This is reality, this is where everything is happening, where everything exists. Can you trace it back to a separate entity, a self, that is either causing or projecting or creating this field of experience? Is there absolutely anything real that is able to exist outside of this field? Does a self exist within this field? Can a self be experienced?

This illusory place where our focus usually is when we believe in a self, where it seems it must dwell - this 'blind spot', this inaccessible area usually assumed to be located behind the eyes - shift focus from there and into this field of experience. Recognise this place for what it is. Spend some time with it. A day or two if necessary. Adjust relating with life and the world accordingly. It's nothing huge, just a simple shift in focus. Apply it to real life. Look, look from this vantage point.

Tell me what you see.

Hello Nemo

Well, a lot of stuff has happened the past few days. Rollercoaster. 

I can't fucking find the self, it's not there. I have now reached the point where looking seems ridiculous. But then, time goes by, and suddenly 2 hours later im already caught up in it's illusion.
This is what's freaking me out the most. I have no control over this, my brain isn't advanced enough to perform "Ok, the ego sucks - discard it" and voíla.

There are still thoughts and emotions appearing that are ego centered. What to do about this?
I don't want to take note every single time they pop up "Aha, ego games are being played"

Is it possible to just live life without even looking at spiritual concepts?
Or some way to quickly burn through ego centered thoughts/emotions and cut of their food supply once and for all?

You asked my why bother with all of this. I have one core reason for doing this.
I want to express myself freely without having to filter my actions through how others will view me. I want to feel real, unfiltered.

I admit I really feel lost. Don't know where to go.

Thanks for being there

I see no difference between me and other people. Same like when I see a bunch of trees I don't consider each tree to be a separate individual. Nothing different here right, with us humans?
Our individuality is based on a lie that is believed to be true. Truth is that the lie is there and that it is a lie - it's not true. Seeing this is like a shift in perception, because the truth itself never changes. 

But nothing really changes or shifts. Truth is that the lie is there. Truth doesn't remove the lie.

Am i missing something? I feel like I am. Like a pattern being triggered that says I need more info..

Hey Markus, nice to hear from you.

Great emails.

There is no need to discard the ego. Once the illusion of self is seen through, there is still work to be done. It's just about remaining honest, really. Seeing how thoughts compare to reality. If thoughts and emotions appear that are ego centred, it's okay. They're gonna happen, and there's no need to be hard on yourself for it. It's only necessary to say "Aha, ego games are being played", or detach, when experience of reality starts getting seriously distorted and steered off track. You just need to relax and let go though, let the emotions or ego identification arise and pass away. Because they will. But they no longer need to be blown out of proportion and get out of hand. They hold no more power. Remind yourself of that. And you know what? Seeing the illusion is like discovering a muscle you never had, but what we're doing here is developing that muscle. It will become more natural, and start happening without needing any reminder. 

"I want to express myself freely without having to filter my actions through how others will view me. I want to feel real, unfiltered."

I understand this need for authenticity. I can relate so much. I pretty much had a breakdown pre-liberation because I could no longer interact with other people. It was at a party too. It was pretty funny actually.

But check this out: free expression is happening regardless of whether you want it or not. Life has free reign, and sometimes it includes feelings of insecurity and self-consciousness. And sometimes it doesn't. But you don't own these feelings. They're part of the spectrum of experience, of human emotion. There is no good or bad emotions, just different colours. But you need to stop thinking you can either control them or that they are happening to you. Open up to them all and let them pass on through. Don't hold on and make them linger by attaching them to a self. It's not personal. Ego isn't the filter, this is. Realising this is what makes the suffering stop. It's what makes life feel authentic again.

You said-

Truth is that the lie is there and that it is a lie - it's not true. Seeing this is like a shift in perception, because the truth itself never changes. 

But nothing really changes or shifts. Truth is that the lie is there. Truth doesn't remove the lie. 

That's beautiful man. Do you see how it applies to the above? 

Truth is that the lie is there, and now it is known to be a lie, and no longer believed as truth. That's it. That's the whole enchilada my brother. Truth doesn't remove the lie.

C'mon, you can do this - shine a light on this fucker, expose it. Confront it. Take a good hard stare at this sense of self and tell me what you see, tell me what it's made of, tell me why it should hold any power. 

Cut the cord!

Hey Nemo

Where is the cord? Lol

I had this underlying fear regarding the fact that all thoughts/beliefs are false.

When thoughts about happiness, desire, fun come up I would be like "awww, but it's false"

And yes, it IS false - but that doesn't mean the opposite is true.
I would think that If the thought "I am happy" is false, then suddenly "I am sad" would be the true case.

Haha! What a joke really. It feels freeing to see how ALL thoughts are lies

Like, I'm going out tonight - and believe I will have a good time. It's obviously a complete lie, because I can't know that for sure. But! Doesn't mean that I WONT have a good time. That would just be the other side of the same belief.

Wow.. free expression happening regardless is awesome. Because control is a illusion, the only thing really happening is free expression. There is no quality control that expression goes through before it is expressed

I'll write back tomorrow

Cool Markus!

Looking forward to it.

Hey Nemo

Having loads to do so i procrastinate writing back to you. I hate explaining myself!
But I'll scratch that and rant something fresh. Looking back at what I wrote makes it feel wrong somehow, even though it felt really spot on at the time.

I have battled in my mind many times now what the fuck the point is of all this. By seeing this nothing has changed, really NOTHING. I doubt myself too sometimes. Have i seen it? Can't have, there is nothing to see. But this nothing is real. Normally I would fill this nothing with stories though, but now it just is there.

There is nothing lost, and nothing won. But..!
The CONCEPT of no-self seems to be able to change belief structures in the brain though, so there is some practical use to it. Like from time to time I might stumble upon dynamites such as the free expression thing we talked about before and they will blow up current belief structures regarding that subject. And new ones can be built in its place, that fit the new view of reality. The brain will always build new structures..
I can't choose which structures the brain will build though, so technically it's not practical. So then again, wtf is the point here =) But somehow certain structures fall and others rise in its place, without me willing it.

I have fears, and I try to look what's behind them when they come up. I think I make a mistake by saying to myself that "I'm not there yet" whenever bad thoughts / fears / feelings come up. But in retrospect I can look and see. "I'm not there yet" Who is not where? ^_^
I see this as patterns, structures in the brain that still run when their trigger comes up. For example, I could be "dealing" with fear by thinking that "Oh right, Fear is here now because I haven't reached enlightenment which is in the future. I must get to that point and then all will be good." This is very convenient for a number of reasons. It gives a sense of security while at the same time postponing the problem without having to look at the boogeyman in this moment. I don't actually think this, but if I were to translate the whole process into words I believe it would look like this.

I read your post about psychedelics. Interesting stuff. I have thought about this A LOT too. My first no-self experience (is this whats called a satori?) was when I was 18 (I'm 22 now) and had eaten a ton of shrooms. I reached what is called ego-death, and it was incredibly frightening yet at the same time very fresh, curious and interesting. It left me with more questions than answers. I just couldn't understand how I could still live and experience reality when I wasn't there. I had no idea who I was, had to call my mates (Interesting that I knew who they are) and ask them to talk about me, tell me what I like to do, what my name is and so on. This was perhaps a defense mechanism to fill the empty void that I was facing.
Just felt like sharing that

I don't know what I want from you. I guess a surefire way to confirm if im enlightened, so I can finally tick this of as done and move on. Yes, I see how ridiculous that sounds. But no person is enlightened..so who seeks confirmation? And what would 'done' even mean when nothing is changed?

There is some confusion on activities like yoga and meditation..how is it that they raise the clarity, and when doing them noself is clear as the sky to me? Well they do cause certain chemicals to be released which in turn make the body experience things differently. But I dont buy that enlightenment has chemical requirements.
Yet so many have more or less said that enlightenment is just transmuted sexual energy. Actually big confusion on this topic. If you can shed some light on this im really grateful.

Be well

Haha, yeah, I hate explaining myself too. It's okay, nothing needs explaining. Things unfold as they should.


"There is nothing lost, and nothing won."


Yeah. Beautiful. Isn't it liberating?


"By seeing this nothing has changed, really NOTHING."


Really? Nothing has changed? What were you expecting to change? Examine your expectations. Are they plausible, or realistic - that is, do they have the qualities of reality? If you can let them go, you may find that change must happen regardless. Maybe just not the kind of change you expect. 


"There is nothing lost, and nothing won. But..!
The CONCEPT of no-self seems to be able to change belief structures in the brain though, so there is some practical use to it. Like from time to time I might stumble upon dynamites such as the free expression thing we talked about before and they will blow up current belief structures regarding that subject. And new ones can be built in its place, that fit the new view of reality. The brain will always build new structures..
I can't choose which structures the brain will build though, so technically it's not practical. So then again, wtf is the point here =) But somehow certain structures fall and others rise in its place, without me willing it."


Great example of constant change.

Offer no resistance, become receptive. No use in looking at what's not happening, look at what is. Or you could miss it! Everything is perfect the way it is, it's all included. Seeing this, and not thinking something must be changed in order to wake up, is part of waking up. Nothing could be out of place.

Yeah, belief structures will come and go. And nah, you can't choose them. Life and circumstance is doing that. Don't you feel far more trusting of them to make the choices than an illusory self? :)

Just let observation happen through an honest eye. It's the only way to be true to reality, and provides the clearest and most appropriate circumstance for the choosing to happen. Seems like a good reason.


"I think I make a mistake by saying to myself that "I'm not there yet" whenever bad thoughts / fears / feelings come up. But in retrospect I can look and see. "I'm not there yet" Who is not where? ^_^"

Yes indeed, who is not where? There's no "I", but there's also no "there" and no "yet". Just here, now. Whatever is happening right now is all there is. 

I completely understand, that when negative thoughts/emotions creep in, the doubts do to. Also a feeling of identification can accompany, along with a thought like "I'm not fucking enlightened, what a joke." But why? Does fear or anger or sadness really imply this? Even when all the above happens, identification, the works, it's still not actually happening to you, and nothing can change that. Old patterns will still need to play out, karma will still need to be burned, and that's fine. Just gently observe, and in doing this it's possible to cut their fuel source, and slowly release them. There will still be sense of self residue too.

It's okay if sense of self still happens.

Sense of self isn't the same thing as belief in self.

Satori is a Zen term that means "sudden knowing", it's meant to be the first step towards enlightenment. Cool word :) Kensho means something similar, like "seeing truth". Here's a good definition from wiki: "...a blissful realization where a person's inner nature, the originally pure mind, is directly known as an illuminating emptiness, a thusness which is dynamic and immanent in the world."

Definitely sounds like what you described.

Yeah. Psychedelics can be very poignant, potent pointers! It's a complete shame - nay, a travesty, that our culture regards them they way it does and fails to see the potential that so many other cultures see. Really sad. We are severely lacking in a befitting initiation ritual.


"I don't know what I want from you. I guess a surefire way to confirm if im enlightened, so I can finally tick this of as done and move on. Yes, I see how ridiculous that sounds."


No, doesn't sound ridiculous. Language can be sucky but I understand what you're saying. "I am enlightened". Ridiculous statement? Contradiction in terms? Sure. But it's said with the knowing it's a contradiction. The words themselves aren't the truth, but they're pointing to it. You know what I'm talking about, I know what I'm talking about, and that's the clearest, most straightforward way it can be said in our language without dodging questions or sounding like a douche.

It can be a fun and even insightful experiment to try and express things without using any personal pronouns, but there's no need to trip up over linguistics, or be confused or stressed over them. Until a better language is invented we can only use the tools available.

I don't buy that enlightenment has chemical requirements either. In fact, when you hear the words "enlightenment" and "requirements" in the same sentence, be entirely dubious.

Yoga and meditation. Wonderful body-mind exercise. Body-mind, spine and posture, and breath, are a big part of experience, and so I see something like meditation as finding your seat. Rather, body-mind finding it's seat. In the ride of life. You get me. People always forget to breathe, me included. Breathing is constantly happening of course, but often in a shallow and tense rhythm. If you're ever feeling fear, or tension, or intensity of any kind - and sometimes it happens in the body without the mind even really noticing - try long slow deep breaths right down into your belly. Drop your shoulders. Observation of body and what it's saying is just as important as observation of mind. I'm still learning this one myself. I spent some time recently sitting in half-lotus (it's good for hip alignment) and really paying close attention to my spine. Really getting a feel for it, listening to what it had to say, and letting my body follow it's lead. First time I'd ever really done it properly. Hunched over, stretched back, wriggled, moved my shoulders, my neck, completely involuntarily - without thought. It was absolutely amazing and I highly recommend getting in touch with the spine.


"Yet so many have more or less said that enlightenment is just transmuted sexual energy. Actually big confusion on this topic. If you can shed some light on this im really grateful."


Does it sound true to you? I really don't know, maybe it's true for whoever said it. But it's just hearsay. I can say it's certainly not true in this experience in this moment. But that's just hearsay too. What can be known directly, right now? Transmuted sexual energy? What is part of experience? Because that's what it is. Only "you" can know it. Your perspective isn't your perspective, it's the only perspective. Dig? :) Enlightenment is something that comes before thought, before words, before descriptions and beliefs. (Hehe, another beautifully ironic statement). It doesn't make all these things false, or mean it disappears when they come into play, they can still point to, and be a part of what's real. And what's real is what's real regardless.

Check this out, it's awesome. It's a "discordian koan", from the Principia Discordia:

Greater Poop: Is Eris true?

Malaclypse the Younger: Everything is true.

GP: Even false things?

M2: Even false things are true.

GP: How can that be?

M2: I don't know man, I didn't do it.

Profound stuff.

It's almost 3am here and I'm enjoying myself immensely writing to you. I'm having a great rant and I hope some of it has been helpful, but it's probably time for a bit of refocusing. Let's try and tie it all together!

So, rewinding a bit. 

If you look back through what you've written, or even if you examine what's coming up now, how much of it is real and how much of it is just thought? There will be plenty of time for deep thinking about it later, and much fun to be had from it, but right now it's not going to help too much. Let thoughts come and go, watch them, pay attention, but try not to follow illusion too far down the rabbit hole. When a seemingly relevant one makes itself known, ask "is this just a thought or is it something real?"

What's real Markus? What is definitely known to be real and what isn't?

Investigate. Use mind and all the senses, use body and environment. And honesty. Use every tool available. Sense right out, let experience expand. 

Tell me about you. Tell me about self - belief in self, sense of self, existence of self. Describe as best you can what is happening with these things right now. Fresh start. Leave everything else behind just for this moment. What is I, why is I, where is I, how did it get here? How does it relate with everything? What's going on? Who are you??

Tell it like it is brother.

Love to you my friend.

Hey Nemo!

I think your rant has been very helpful to me. I don't quite get how my perspective can be the only perspective. It's impossible to verify that this perspective is the only one. I mean, this is the only one that can be experienced, but I don't know that others don't have perspectives. If what you are saying is true then your perspective doesn't exist.

Hmm.. Well it doesn't.. for you it does but for me it doesn't. Mind-twisting. I see how there is just one perspective, but it's one out of many. I can't deny the existence of other perspectives but I also can't verify their existence either. Since there is only ever just one perspective - nobody can say they have two perspectives. I guess problems arise when the question comes up who has the most real perspective. This is very paradoxically confusing - I'll leave it for now, seems like it could go on for eternity.

The only thing that I know for sure to be real is that life is happening. It's the only thing I can't deny - that experience exists. Existance exists. Many things exist, body, computer, cup of tea. I can't deny all these "things" existing. Thoughts exist too, like mental phenomena. Thoughts though are just concepts and pointers, and in and of themselves they have no real substance. A thought depends on many things to happen. Environment, neurons firing, the state of neural pathways etc.

A thought can point to this cup of tea, but the thought is not the cup. So there is definately a clear distinction between things being real and false. If I would zoom in to atomic level of this cup, would i still be able to call it a cup of tea? Where does the cup end and begin?

Getting off track I feel.

I know that I is just a thought. Why do I know this? Because I can't find the thing that the I-thought is pointing to. I can think about it, but a thought will just point to another thought. The thinker is nowhere to be found, perhaps because he can't be thinked. But just because it can't be found, is it true that the thinker doesn't exist?

Wait, now I'm assuming there to be someone doing the thinking. Where does the assumption come from then? If I can't find a single piece of evidence of the thinker even existing in the first place. Have I seen it sometime and thus confirmed it's existence? No, If I could ever see it then I should be able to do it again. FUCK. Where does it come from then, and why is it?

I don't know where it comes from. I could give you the correct and easy answer which would be to say it comes from the environment, conditioning, linguistic structure etc. But I don't know that for sure. Ok, let's say it is correct. But where the hell did the guys who invented language or conditioned everyone get the idea in the first place?

Where the hell does it come from and why. It's a thought. Why does this thought appear?
What is the point in creating this separation with the universe? I never chose to do it. It just happened. Why is there duality?

There isn't duality, but the illusion of it. WHY. There is just the universe, because the thing which would make it dual is not real. There isn't universe and me, there is universe. In this case I am everything but also nothing. Infinity.
Or rather I'm nothing, but there is everything. Because my true nature can't be put into a box and called a thing. A thing implies seperation from other things.

Whoa, getting trippy here.

My mind needs a break. I literally feel mentally exhausted after each of these emails.

I have had a very loaded period the last few days. Mainly positive though - but still many things on my mind.
I'm deeply in love with a girl and it's very interesting and fresh. I am having feelings that I never thought I would be able to have, and it's radiating out of me unto others as well. 

But the I-thought pop ups very frequently in interaction with her! But there are also those moments where everything just falls away, and I'm left with this beatiful feeling.
Thing like jealousy, anxiety and jittery feelings are very interesting when they come up. They are always centered around the fact that I think this person belongs to me or that I am afraid of how this person will view me.
I try to short-circuit them with no-self stuff, and it works sometimes. But really, I just want to have free flow. No interruption, not thinking that I have to short-circuit etc.
I feel I'm getting closer to that though.


Nemo, just the knowing that I have someone to talk about this stuff is a huge relief. I haven't talked to ANYONE in person about non-duality.
I'm immensely grateful and the fact you take time with such great replies is really warming my heart.


I hate this word (my ego is to cool for it and i associate it with yoga freaks) but it really sums up what I wan't to end this with:


Namasté!

Hey Markus, 

You were not off track at any time in that email, it was great. The trippy stuff, the paradoxical stuff, look into it as deep as you feel inclined. I absolutely love to. But don't be concerned if you don't find a straight answer, (actually, you should be concerned if you find a straight answer!!) these sorts of things - eg. one perspective or many? - act as koans, and open up your mind to think and explore in new and different ways. Or even momentarily stop it altogether.

This can certainly be an exhausting process. But that's good, you're not doing this half-assed, you're putting all your energy into it. And, as you said, you are getting closer. I would certainly agree.

And thanks for the gratitude, it is deeply felt :) It can be really hard talking to people about nonduality stuff in person. I feel just as much gratitude to be speaking to you about this stuff. It's mutually beneficial. The illusion is that I am ahead of you in my journey, but its not true. Right now in our journeys we are walking down the path side by side. 

And when you're done with this, it doesn't mean you have to stop emailing me. Whenever you have any other questions, or just want to chat about it, I'm here.

I read back over your email to find places where you are stuck to comment on, but it all looks just beautiful. Your investigations, your questions, your discoveries, your confusion. It's all perfect.

And now you have this beautiful new love to explore. A wonderful opportunity. But you are completely aware of the I illusion and how it works, the things it creates in this situation. You aren't fooled by it for a second. Even the fact that you know there is no need to try and short-circuit it I don't have to point out. Awesome, Markus. Awesome. Just being aware of it is all you really need to short circuit it. 

I'm really keen to hear where you're at with this now. I saw a friend, Ilona, say online today, 

"Liberation is not a point in time, it's ongoing process, like falling. You jump and it takes over. 
Have you jumped yet?" 

For me it felt like I leaned too far out the window and fell out, heh. Your email has all the hallmarks of one who has jumped Markus. But that's only speculation. How do you feel?
Haha, I completely agree with you in the Namaste sentiments. A cool word that's become way too mainstream to be cool anymore. Hahaha.

Namaste...

Hey =)

I more and more feel that there is nothing that I need to see, and I feel less desire for seeking answers.
I can stumble upon questions when I really dig deep into this, but I feel it's just mental masturbation. Like why is the illusion of duality? Why is Maya? Why not? Fuck.

I really enjoy listening to Alan Watts a lot, but it's purely out of pleasure. Seems that the drive I had for self enquiry for a very long time is fading away. I don't know what this means, or why it should mean anything at all. I don't draw conclusions, and I don't assume things from this. But It's refreshing to be able to slowly let go of all this.

An unexpected side effect has been that I seem to have lost all interest in always being right and I'm not scared to show the world that I don't have all the correct answers, that I have problems of my own and that I'm not perfect. This is incredibly refreshing. When you position yourself next to someone rather than above them the interaction changes completely.

But I'm still looking for ways to use this new "insight". Or I'm trying to adapt somehow.
Though the more I examine my expectations on what enlightenment would do to me there more I'm just left with nothing. My biggest expectation and hope was that seeing the illusion would give me a clear direction in life. Like, if I could see all the false then I would know where to go. But this clearly wasn't the case, because everything I see is false, illusion and lies. On the contrary, I feel that I have lost direction and motivation. I ride the waves, but I feel no desire to steer. Or it's rather that I think it's impossible to steer.

How can I steer, when it's completely impossible to know where I'm headed? How should I choose a way that is better than any other way, when it's impossible to know where they end up?

I have this huge urge to trip on psychedelics again which I haven't done for a few years. I guess it's because I hope this will give me new lenses to look through which would in turn broaden my perspective and thus give me a clearer view of what I want to do with my life. Right now, I have no fucking clue. I ride the waves and enjoy it. Sometimes they aren't very enjoyable. But I feel that just riding the waves can't get me very far. I feel like I'm drifting in circles.


I need a drive, I can't just sit back and chill. I'm not employed by someone who can tell me what I should do and when. I run a social media business with a friend and I need to channel energy into that. But I see no point with it and thus have no desire for it. It's not that I hate that work. I'm actually very interested in digital marketing. And it feels good to work for yourself and not be dependant on others. Money doesn't seem to motivate me that much. I know I would do amazing things If I had more money, like travelling and new experiences. But it feels like my ideal lifestyle is so far away that it's pointless to have as a goal.


Maybe I just don't know what I want. I mean travelling and living freely sounds great n all, but I have failed with following through with my plans so many times in the past that I guess I have just concluded that it's impossible and now I'm looking for some other approach to this whole thing called life. Having a ideal lifestyle as a goal feels just too far away, I think I need something which is closer and more accessible which in turn would motivate me more to do the steps necessary.


I feel this mail is very abstract.. But it feels good getting it out of my system.
Don't feel stressed with replying. Take your time. We all have things that need doing..

Heya navigator

Wow, looking back at my previous mail makes me feel like a moron.
I wrote that on a hangover and obviously I shouldn't do that in the future.

It still amazes me how the perspective can change. I don't get how it does that!
I mean, all the stuff I wrote is still valid, the confusion is real, but when I look at it now it seems less important. Like more in the background.

What can I trust when nothing lasts? How can I make decisions and feel confident and safe about them when my perspective will be completely different later on?

This makes any sense?
Am I refusing to let go of something? Of control?

I wouldn't mind dropping control and just flow in the river of life. But I don't feel I can trust the river yet.

------> Isn't it stupid to trust it when you don't know where it takes you? <-------

Be well!

If you don't look back at what you've written and feel like a moron, be concerned. You know why? 

Progress. Stagnation = death. You're moving forward. The river moves forward. Life evolves, develops, progresses. 

The river takes you to the only place there is. 

What can you trust when nothing lasts? 

That nothing lasts :)

How can you feel confident about your decisions? 

Because they're not really your decisions, they're determined by external influences. Trust that your perspective will be completely different later on. Think about that. This perspective, that you have right now, will be completely different later on. 

Tell me. What do you think relinquishing control entails? And what do you think will happen if you relinquish control?

I'm not sure. I see how control is fake, it doesn't exist. But I feel that if you believe in it, it will actually have some sort of effect. Where is my power if everything is determined by external influences?
Is there any point in wanting things if it's completely beyond ones control?

Jed said something along the lines that the universe works in a way that what you desire, will simply come to you. How does this fit in if control is an illusion and everything is determined by external influences?
Have you read some Toltec philosophy? They describe this as 'Intent'. I don't really understand it though

I must say that the topic of control is the one I get most confused about. I see how it's an illusion but I don't want that, because I feel that i'll just be like a log drifing in the river of life, completely powerless without any ability to decide it's course.

"I'm not sure. I see how control is fake, it doesn't exist. But I feel that if you believe in it, it will actually have some sort of effect."

Beautiful.

Do you see, the power is there, the wanting is there, but it doesn't lie in a 'you'. It lies in the perfectly formed and minute detail of the unfolding conditions. It lies in the moment. The only thing you can do is offer resistance to this. What would you rather entrust with this power, with decision-making? A fine-tuned environment or an illusory self?

It all comes down to the path of least resistance. The course of the log is no different from that of the river. But the river doesn't stop to determine it's own course either, it just flows. 

"The course of the log is no different from that of the river."

Oh shi-

Your reply really resonated, I felt it showed me some missing piece of the puzzle, but I know that's just a thought.. everything is already perfect isn't it. This fucking self is a sneaky bastard, it creeps in everywhere.
It's amazing how desire is there but it's not from ME. Then where does it come from? I don't know, but it's there.

I do feel I'm creating resistance.

I don't know what to say. I feel there is something that I still haven't "figured out" or something I'm missing. It's just thoughts, but the feeling is still there and causing some resistance.

You have been terribly helpful, even though it's hard to judge progress on this matter.

Be well




Hey Markus,

Let's refocus this investigation back to the essential basics.

Drop everything pre-now and look at the simplicity of what is being experienced in this moment.

Answer these questions for me:

When you say "I" what are you referring to?

Do you exist in any way?

Hellooo Nemo

I like this. Ok.

When you say "I" what are you referring to?

This depends on circumstances. If I am talking with another person and say I'm hungry, I mean that THIS human organism requires food, not the human I'm talking to.
I don't really see what "I" refers to, but it's essential in language. Mainly to draw the line between me and others.

If I say "I like the color green" I am actually saying that there is a natural attraction to this certain color. This attraction is probably based on past experiences (in reality thoughts in the present moment) with the color green. The I that likes this color is thus a concoction of thoughts. Is that what I am then? A bunch of thoughts? Nah, I can't attribute a thought with a bunch of other thoughts and say it's something other than a thought.

I could say I am the empty space in which thoughts appear, but it's too easy. I think that all thoughts appear out of nothing. Same like sound. It can only be experienced because it appears out of silence and fades back into it.
So is this NOTHING from which everything appears what I truly am then? Sounds too good and fairy tale like. It would be more precise to say I am the nothing and everything that appears in this nothing. Then the thoughts are just as much "me" as the silence from where they came is "me". And if everything is me, why even bother naming it or distinguishing between me and no me.

But what about the line between me and the rest of the universe?

I used to think that the skin is the final border between me and the universe. But really the environment and the body are one because they depend on each other. My body could never ever possibly exist without the environment. The air, warmth, cold, nutrition, gravity. There are so many things that my existence depends on that I can't say that I am just this body. 

These thoughts all make sense to me until I bring in other people into the mix. These two legged organisms. They seem so real. I know something they don't, but so what?? They are dreaming, I am dreaming. Honestly I don't know what awake means. Ok, I see that I'm dreaming, is that being awake? Would sure be more nice to see that I am awake.

Do you exist in any way?

I wanted to say; "No... BUT there are many other things that exist, existence exists, life is happening, things appear and so on."

Fuck that BUT. I don't exist and that's it.

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