Kali

I have been going nuts reading over the forum.
A friend of mine just got her confirmation with Kevin, and I am excited beyond belief.
This is getting very real.
There's nothing more that I want than to see what is.
I fell in love with Adya a couple of years ago, and something shifted then.
But after that I heard Jed Mckenna's books, and the fire started burning.
I have my moments, most of the time that I see that life just happens, but as honest as I am I cannot see that there is no me at the level that I read in the website.
Forgive me for this personal mail. I am a little technically challenged with internet.
Thank you for writing back. I am in the US
Will go out for a walk with my dog, and stay up all night if I have to, if there's a conversation going on here.
I want to do this, I want to see what is real, and mostly I want to see that this character has just been a dream.
Kali


Ok Kali, your enthusiasm is great!


To see 'no me' you actually need to look for a me. I know this sounds strange, but if you don't do a thorough search and look at each possibility for your self, you can never see this directly. There will always be a nagging doubt somewhere if you just agree with what someone is saying to you, unless it is made a part of direct experience. This is because reality can only ever lie in direct experience. It's the difference between intellectualizing a concept and actually seeing.


I have looked for a me, and I know there is not one there, just the sense that there is a center of the activity of the mind, the body and oh the ever overwhelming emotions.
That is what I can't see beyond.


Okay, let's look at this sense of a center.

Is there anything that appears to arise in this 'center' - that is, thoughts, feelings, actions, identification - autonomous and entirely uninfluenced by surroundings, environment, conditions? Is this center a separate entity? Are internal and external mutually exclusive?

What I'm talking about here is nonduality. Awareness that experiencer is in no way separate from experience. This makes the illusion of self melt away - the wave dissolve back into the ocean, as it were. I actually think this is a great metaphor. A wave arises in the vastness of the ocean, as an expression of the ocean, in the same way that what I call me arises as an expression of, and point of reference in, experience. But, as separate, autonomous entities, neither the wave nor I exists.

We use labels like "self" and "wave" but really there is only movement, in the ocean and in reality. A wave could never become detached from the ocean so that it could know the ocean. In the same way that you cannot create a self separate from experience/reality in order to know it (ie. an experiencer). It can't be done, because, as I've said, absolutely nothing outside of immediate experience can be a called reality. What we are doing here is closing the gap.

This all might sound plausible, but check it out. Take a look, see if any of this applies in real life.


I see that the center exist when is triggered with emotions, or notices the constant commentary of the mind, or feels the good stuff, so no I cannot say that it exist away from an experience, that is as far as I have gotten on my own.Unfortunately this mind has a perpetual comment, or song, and if there's a gap, then the center is the one the enjoys the peace and quiet.
The center is what has wants, and dislikes, and preferences, and is also the one that has learned to let go of the steering wheel, and recognizing it never had control.

Nemo my frustration is that I do see that there is no separate entity, but that does not translate to a recognition of what am I really?


Do you think that this might be because you are holding onto the need to be able to identify with something at all? If there is no you, you cannot recognise what you really are, you see? What exists is the universe, reality, everything but you. So this is the process of reality recognising what it is not.


yes, absolutely,
But who is it ,that has the burning desire to see reality?,

Actually I just saw that no one, it just is.
I love the wave analogy, but can't get past the feeling of separateness.

I don't know how to see more directly, what am I looking at?

I am really confused.
One moment I have a sense that I do see what you are saying, but it happens with the center in the background as a radio that I forgot to turn off. And then the next moment I feel like who am I kidding I don't see, and I don't get it at all.
With Adya and Jed McKenna, there was a definite shift, and I don't know what happened then, but I went from total despair, and feeling like I was dying to having energy to live life.

Awareness of the impermanence is what fuels my looking.I hate saying goodbye to anything or anybody I love. Since I was a kid, it's like a constant remembering that one day death will come for all of us.
So I just want to see the illusion of death, that everybody that is awake talks about.


Is this the best way to do this?
I don't know how it is that I wrote to you, it just happened, shall we just continue back and forth?
Now I feel like I want to turn on the heat, so I am  not wasting your time.

Nemo, I am going to read Brutal Beginnings, and see if that gets me any closer, but please write again if there's something you can point out at me.


Hi Kali.

"But who is it ,that has the burning desire to see reality?,

Actually I just saw that no one, it just is."

Yes. One way to say this is that there is just the burning desire, it does not need someone or something to have it in order to exist.

Another way to say it is that Reality has the burning desire to become authentic once more. It has been overlaid with the illusion of self and the result is what is being felt - this feeling of inauthenticity - and thus this burning desire to be free of it.

"One moment I have a sense that I do see what you are saying, but it happens with the center in the background as a radio that I forgot to turn off."

You are identifying with a center, yes? You can see that it is not a separate entity, right? Really, it doesn't even have any distinct boundaries. What is this center made of? Is it stationary or does it move about? Is it really truly even there?

You see out your eyes. Is this center? Let's say you stub your toe, that shot of pain overwhelming everything else. Does this toe become center? You think of something you want to tell the person in the next room. Is the thought the center, is mind the center, or is center somewhere between you and the person in the next room?

It is okay for a sense of self to arise sometimes. It is what happens, the waves on the ocean, the play of life. But the knowing that this sense of self is just a sense, a thought, that points to nothing, is what is important. It doesn't matter that thoughts about self come up. Thoughts about a boogey man living in your closet might come up. But you know he's not there. But if you think he might be, open the closet and take a look.

"Awareness of the impermanence is what fuels my looking.I hate saying goodbye to anything or anybody I love. Since I was a kid, it's like a constant remembering that one day death will come for all of us.
So I just want to see the illusion of death, that everybody that is awake talks about."

The illusion of death. It's like this: Illusion of self creates ownership. My family. My friends. The things in my life that I love.

Nothing can ever, ever be lost because they were never yours to lose, do you see? Sadness and joy still happen, too, but you don't own them either, and so cannot really suffer them. Investment in self is what causes the suffering, really.

I can see that you are burning to get this done. I am quite happy to continue emailing back and forth, and will try to be quicker with my responses. Please don't worry about wasting my time, it is a pleasure to be doing this, really. However, if you want to turn up the heat by moving to the immediacy of chat we can do that too. If you have or want to create a google account we can use the chat here in gmail, or skype, or whatever you want to use. Let me know.


Hi Nemo
With the time difference this is the pace that it will need to be, and it's fine.

This illusion of a center becomes strong with ownership, and territory.
It does not provide a sense of achievements when I get something , but it does give the sense of loss, even when I know nothing really belongs to "me"

Talking with my friend this morning, someone that just went through the process with Kevin, I was saying to her that I do see that the sense of self points at nothing there, and since I saw that (don't really know when), then the fear of the roller coaster has gone.
I no longer feel the need to know that everything is going to be ok. I have just relaxed and wait to things to happen.
But,... a big but!... what I don't see yet, is the part that all is one, and the illusion of separation gets hold of my perception.
So where am I?
Or better question for me is how to find the elusive phenomena that creates this false separation, that from where I am standing looks very real?
That's the dragon that needs slaying, or the illusion to be seen through.

This process of writing to you helps me focus, and maybe is slow but with the things you write back I can keep at it.

I did install the google chat thing, but as I expressed before I am a bit technically challenged.

I will stay aware most of my day to see if anything from you comes.
You are probably sleeping now, and I may just keep rambling on in more emails so you can see where am I with all this.

Very grateful Nemo.
Kali


You're doing really really great work. Let's talk about this "all is one" stuff. Advaita, nonduality, or simply "not-two". What you're doing is mistaking oneness for the appearance of sameness, but it's not. Things don't have to appear the same to be connected. When you look closely, even this collection of patterns in experience, emerging from the void, around an ever-moving, ever-changing "center" which has been labeled "Kali" cannot take on the qualities of consistent sameness. There is nothing solid or separate or permanent that can actually be called Kali. The body grows and constantly changes in appearance throughout it's lifetime. The thoughts, emotions and what we call personality are constantly moving and changing too. And not only this, but these things are entirely shaped by, connected to, and very much a part of surroundings and environment. This "Kali" pattern is simply a movement in reality.

The illusion of separation, just like sense of self, might still come and go, especially in the beginning. But it's okay if it is known that it's just an illusion, you see? So no need to fret about it. Once no-self is seen as reality, all of this nonduality stuff will fall into place anyway. You need to allow it all to integrate, explore the new perspective, as it were. No-self and nonduality are in many ways the same insight anyway. Once it is seen that reality needs no experiencer to exist, all there is is experience, which is big and vast enough to contain everything that is and needs to be. This feeling of separateness, of self, is just a ripple in the fabric of experience. It seems separate, takes on the qualities of separateness to a degree, but really it isn't.

You said that you can see that sense of self points to nothing. This is great, stay with this. Don't distract yourself with expectations of what you think should be happening, just allow things to unfold. Remember, there is no one driving, all we are looking at is the simple truth of things.
So, explore this seeing no-self. Describe it to me. Apply it to an everyday situation or activity, even something mundane.
Go! :)


good morning in the beautiful land of Australia.

Today I read some more on the forum. And then the urge to go out and just play came.
Getting into my head was not helping, and it felt like I was creating the illusion of the self that is in charge of effort.
I went and worked some more on a mosaic in my garden, cook, etc.

Then read some more.
I still feel that I do see it. See that there's no self, no cohesive energy to what is happening.
But that is it.

I did apply at the forum (at least I think I did) so I'll jump in there as soon as I can.

Is it possible that I took for granted this realization before?

Right now it feels that staying with it, staying with  the looking while all the experiences are happening is what is needed.But please call on any bullshit if I am getting off the focus.

I need to read your last message again and again.

I long to see that all is one, no separation.

It's hoy hot summer here, and at some point I will go out this evening to walk and play with my dog.
I will check message here in case you write.
Very grateful
Kali


Hello Kali

It is possible to take this realisation for granted, as it can seem so subtle at first.
It is often necessary to tie up loose ends and/or clear away debris afterward, like this oneness stuff.
However we need to see that this realisation has happened, so please write a bit more about it. Like I said, a description of an activity is a good way to do this, even something like typing, right now, on the computer. What is happening? What is making thoughts happen and telling fingers how to type, etc?

Don't strain to see nonduality. What is it that you believe or expect should happen?
It's actually a rare thing when a big dramatic experience of oneness occurs. Just look at it on small, subtle levels. Take seeing for example. The eyes see an object. The eyes cannot see without something - the object - to look at. The object cannot be seen without the eyes. So really, the eyes and object are connected, interdependent parts in this phenomenon called seeing, which encompasses all "parts". Existence is seeing - it becomes both noun and verb. Direct experience, of which a seer is not part of. See?

However, if you are finding this too confusing at the moment, please don't get frustrated. Just focus on seeing no-self and describing it to me. Once self drops away, everything else will fall into place. Reality fills up the space where self was. Just relax. Gentle focus.

Okay, looking forward to hear what you come up with :)


well what I see is that there is nothing "directing traffic" as a way of saying.
Impulse to walk, random thoughts, random emotions. This is my experience right now.
Events unfold, sensations in the body come and go.
I am aware of the feeling of this typing.
There's memories, stories, like files contained in the brain. There can be some talking provoked by...I don't know. Same thing that creates all other stuff... nothing just what is happening.

The self for me has always been what exist when I believe the stories in my head.
When I felt jealous, or lonely, or happy because something had been reached.
Sometimes I must admit that the illusion of self comes in through the back door.I have the illusion sometimes that the self is that part that keeps checking and making sure I don't go lost in illusion...sigh!

reading what I just sent you it seems that I am not entirely there...

It's like this...   I don't see a self...but perhaps, it has not registered all the way that it has never been there... and  that is as clear and honest as I can be right now.
When I do fall for the illusion of the self, it is recognized for what it is, and then I go  oh shit it happened again!

One more thing:
Nemo in this arena of talking and explaining is where I really get lost and confused.
It is when I doubt I have ever seen it.

When I am just living life feels more real.
The only proof that I got that I may have seen the non existence of self, is because suffering is mostly gone from my life.
Yes there is pain sometimes, disappointments, and at the same time I see this is just what is happening...no need to blame, no need to take it personal, as I see that life is just what it is... both for the pleasant and unpleasant.
Yes, I do want to have that loud AHA that seems to happen to other people. The pointing at the existence of this kind of help is not something that I can ignore...so here I am.


Yeah, when you start talking and explaining it turns something real into a concept. It's just a side affect but it's okay, it's pointing to something real.

I am not saying that AHA moment cannot happen, but as long as you are holding on to an expectation, it is distracting focus from looking. And your looking is going really well, keep at it but don't strain. When illusion of self rears it's ugly head, do not stress, just keep tracing it back to what it is pointing to. It's just thoughts. Self is a thought which cannot, itself, think.

For example, when you say "I am aware of the feeling of this typing." - Who is aware?

"The self for me has always been what exist when I believe the stories in my head." - Who believes? If there is a story about a leprechaun, is that believed to? Or can it just be seen/experienced/enjoyed without attachment and identification?

"When I felt jealous, or lonely, or happy because something had been reached." - Who owns these feelings?

"I don't see a self...but perhaps, it has not registered all the way that it has never been there..."
Think about this. Is seeing no-self is destroying self, or it is seeing that it never existed? You're seeing reality as it is, you're not altering reality. This is already how it is. Did self ever exist? Did it?
Reality does not change, but relationship with reality does. Thoughts about self can come up, but they are not attached to anything.

"suffering is mostly gone from my life.
Yes there is pain sometimes, disappointments, and at the same time I see this is just what is happening...no need to blame, no need to take it personal, as I see that life is just what it is... both for the pleasant and unpleasant."

This is great. You are seeing that belief in self is what causes suffering. Emotions happen but no-one owns them. Life unfolding. Lovely.

Please, keep going... belief in self can be tricky and try to trip you up when it's faced with it's own demise. Wherever it tries to hide just shine the light of truth on it. You're so close... You can do this! :)


Hi Nemo

I continue my looking and tracing every identification to just a pure thought, and nothing else.

It's so frustrating... when you ask me... Who is aware?... who has the feelings?...then is clearly no one.... but yet in the moment, like you say it keeps tripping me and get identify with the illusion  that there is someone here.

More later...
Kali

...something important ,it seems happened this morning, that I want your comment.
In the looking,   there had been a feeling for days that it needed something to "corner" that elusive sense of self, so I could really take a good look at it.

So as the body is going for a morning run, there was a memory of a space where before I would find myself a lot, the thought was always "I hate myself"

So that thought took center stage so I could use it and I was looking and looking at this, asking who hated who?
Then the realization came that it was two illusory characters.
One was living in the drama of the emotions, and the other illusory character "the hater" wanted the other illusory character to be "better"

My work puts me in the context of seeing people one on one, and today is so much easier to see that there is nobody there either. Just worry, or pain, or desire, etc.

Thank you Nemo
Kali


Hello Kali!

Wonderful email.
I am sorry for the delay in response, I am travelling overseas for the next few weeks, but I have a laptop and will still be able to check in with you.

You're doing really great work. It's amazing isn't it, how the illusion can imply not only one self, but two or many, or an infinite amount? The hater and the hated at the same time. A wonderful opportunity to see the nature of the illusion. In the same way that it becomes apparent, how can one self be looking for or observing another self at all? And can a third self then appear, observing the observer? Then a fourth, fifth, etc?

Seeing people interact is another good opportunity to look into the nature of no-self, so if you could try this as you work if you are able.

Please, write more. You're looking this right in the face, it's great. Really sense it, extend right into it and write about it. You seem pretty much out to me, how is it feeling?


Thanks Nemo for your reply.

There's the sense that this awareness is like a little candle right now, and that it can grow into a raging fire.
And as life moves on ,the rides can get intense and the illusion of self would want to sneak in , and so the looking is something to continue forever, with all  honesty as now.

I will continue to write. It seems that this has been seen before, yet dismissed.Now is a bit firmer, more integrated.


Hi Nemo

I want to write what was seen today.

Something shifted for me about 2 years ago, or so. I didn't know then what it was or how it happened.
I just went on with life, and that is when it was noticed that suffering was mostly gone, but also it was noticed that  "my" opinions were irrelevant, ...that all desire for "self improvement" had gone, and there was no more will, of my own in the same way as before.

With your help, and the help of RT now there's the ability to see that I never took a good  look, and what I had assume happened, was that some self had been diminished. Now the big difference is that is clear that the self never existed, there was never anything there to be diminished.
The grip of illusion loosened up enough for some shift, but the conclusions about it were not really carefully looked at.
It really helps to see what's going on. Mainly along with this realization what is clear is that there is no progression to this waking up.
There is no getting closer, or getting better at it.
The self that thought had to disappear or improve, was never there.

On with life...
With gratitude
Kali




Kali/Life is free.

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